dear tactical voters...

ifadeo · Post by **ifadeo** » 01/12/2003 - 10:30

hey, tactical voters, you're destroying the remix scene....
...with your fake reviews and anti-voting...

more and more remixers getting frustrated 'bout this...
...and someday there will be no more unique remixes...

to quote a famous remixer(DHS): get a life dudes!

something beautiful is dying....

btw. maybe my max headroom remix, is my last....

ifadeo

CraigG · Post by **CraigG** » 01/12/2003 - 10:49

Sorry, but while I abhor tactical voting, it really pisses me off when remixers say stuff like this (and that includes when DHS did it, despite him creating many of my favourite C64 remixes). One should create said remixes because of the joy of doing so, not to get some percentage-based feedback, and while said feedback can knock if it's low, at the end of the day, who really cares?

Also, I just checked your current release, and it's on 73%, which isn't exactly a low score.

merman · Post by **merman** » 01/12/2003 - 10:56

A lot of the remixers DO CARE about the feedback they get. While it would be nice if everyone is honest and open, the "low" voters seem to be doing it just to knock people back...

Makke · Post by **Makke** » 01/12/2003 - 11:26

merman wrote:the "low" voters seem to be doing it just to knock people back...

Anti-voting only have a mild effect on the average score. When there are few votes on a remix it has a tendancy to take a quick dive in score as soon as someone gives it a "bad" vote. The bad vote might not be anti-voting, the person in question might just not like the remix. So if there are few votes the low rating will have big effect on the average score. However, in the long run these few anti-votes have no real effect on the average score.

It seems we cover this issue several times a year. I personally think all this talk of anti-voting will cause people to vote less, as you're obviously not "allowed" to think a remix is bad. Then thou is the unholy anti-voter!

I agree though that if you give a remix a bad vote it's only good manners to tell someone why. Doing this takes time though, and I know I myself haven't given much feedback lately (in fact, I've not even downloaded much at all lately) because my spare time is strained and I have a lot of projects running along side an education which at times take up a lot of time.

So please don't be so quick to scream ANTI-VOTE just because you got a bad vote. It's not a big problem after all...

CraigG · Post by **CraigG** » 01/12/2003 - 11:45

Merman - yes, I know remixers care about their scores, but when I hear them saying they'll perhaps quit the scene because of some tactical voting, I really wonder why they're in the scene in the first place. Now, I don't make C64 remixes, but I do make music. I've had some bad reviews in my time, and yes it does knock, BUT it's never made me think "well, sod it, I'll just quit then".

Also, ifadeo seems to be generally gaining popularity with those who provide more lengthy feedback, so should he be affected by those determined to keep Machine Supremacy at the top of the charts? I don't think so. Maybe the votes have changed a lot since he posted, but right now his latest track is at 73%, which is hardly a bad score anyway (and, to be honest, I didn't think this remix one of ifadeo's better ones, but it's all down to personal taste, right?)

I also happen to agree with Makke about the whole kid gloves treatment the scene is getting right now. Sure, there are cases when diplomacy has to rule, but there is a real danger of everyone being overly positive. If someone does a very average remix (or a bad one), should we ignore it and not vote? That seems at times to be the general consensus. Maybe we should only vote bad if it's honorbili, or whatever his name was? Surely, though, that smacks of hypocrisy? Only saying positive things does not help creative people to grow - that's a fact. Although criticism can hurt, it is essential to the development of any creative person.

It'll be interesting to see whether there's any reaction to my forthcoming Pixelsurgeon Remix 64 article, because the scene CDs will be reviewed and rated just like any other, and I won't be marking them up just for the sake of it.

ifadeo · Post by **ifadeo** » 01/12/2003 - 12:06

hey guys come down, i don't want to start moaning...
i've got NO problems with a bad vote, but with the fact
that some people just give other tracks a bad vote to
push their own tracks... i'm not a 3-year old kid...

i don't wanna be the number 1, i know that my remixes
are not for the masses, the only thing i want is that the
people play fair...

i can live with the votes i've got...even the bad ones...
...and yes, i did my remixes mainly for myself, for joy...

Love & Peace ifadeo

ifadeo · Post by **ifadeo** » 01/12/2003 - 12:24

...well, criticism is a good thing, it helps musicans to get improve
their work, but how can 'bad' vote helps, if you don't know why...

@CraigG: i'm not just a remixer, i'm also compose my own songs,
which i performed serval times live with my band and i always got
feedback for my work... but i prefer the constructive criticism...
and as i say before i don't wanna be 'top of the pop', i know that
outthere serval remixers doing a better job then me, i've got no
problem with that... and yes, i'm happy with the feedback i've got...

well, 73% isn't bad, i'm satesfied with that, but please, if you give a
remixer a bad vote, then explain why, to help them to improve their
work....

btw. i know how it is to be on stage and people throwing their beer
after you, this happend to me once (a long time ago)....

cheers ifadeo

trace · Post by **trace** » 01/12/2003 - 13:12

I like the reviews, those are good, even though they are bad, it makes me think of what i can do better (or worth lol

)

I don't care about the voting system, if i like the track, i like the track and so on... thats it

I think the voting system kills the joy of remixing, I didn't start remixing to be "the best", I do it because of the memories and the joyment I have doing them

Chris Abbott · Post by **Chris Abbott** » 01/12/2003 - 13:20

Most of the damage to a remix's votes comes from yellow and grey smileys (good/average) rather than "bad/poor", where a remix elicits not muhc feeling altogether. This is a lot more common than the antivoting complained about (people voting against others' remixes to push their own, frankly, that doesn't happen).

> I won't be marking them up just for the sake of it.
Hey... so what happened to that Porsche then??

Chris

CraigG · Post by **CraigG** » 01/12/2003 - 13:24

Chris Abbott wrote:Hey... so what happened to that Porsche then??

Lost in the post? You know what Royal Mail is like these days!

DHS · Post by **DHS** » 01/12/2003 - 14:42

Guys....

I said, I'll not post any more remixes to RKO to subtract them from the voting system (legitimate or faked), not that i'll quit. RKO will host (if Jan will want to) only CO-OPs where i'm in.

As regard the fact that some remixers (including me) wants to be #1...
Well, it's not exactly like this.

The fact is that it's a little disturbing when you make something you believe in, that get good voting then some *anonymous* idiots cast a green smiley. And why? Because he doesn't like "that kind of music", without ever thinking about other things (quality, innovation, etc).

I can survive to bad voting: but if the remix has a good "average" voting, i want to know why someone voted it with a green smiley. And that's the reason the review system is there. If they simply cast the vote and flee away, for me, those are only *idiots* . Period.

And since i don't want to make other public golden showers, that's the way i'll go.

CraigG · Post by **CraigG** » 01/12/2003 - 14:58

Perhaps, then, the charts should be based on reviews only? But then the chances of getting a "bad" rating for a "good" song would be massively increased.

Makke · Post by **Makke** » 01/12/2003 - 15:08

CraigG wrote:Perhaps, then, the charts should be based on reviews only? But then the chances of getting a "bad" rating for a "good" song would be massively increased.

And the amounts of votes would drop to just a few, making the songs more dependant on each of the votes, thus a lower vote will have a greater effect on the average score.

DHS wrote:The fact is that it's a little disturbing when you make something you believe in, that get good voting then some *anonymous* idiots cast a green smiley. And why? Because he doesn't like "that kind of music", without ever thinking about other things (quality, innovation, etc).

Sadly, there's nothing you can do about that. Has happened to me a good few times, and annoying as it is I don't care too much about them. If I know the quality of my work is good, but the one who gave me a bad vote doesn't like the style I as an arranger/composer have done nothing wrong. You just can't please everyone, especially narrowminded people. But it is afterall up to the listened to cast the vote, and it's up to you if you choose to take notice of the vote or ignore it.

I get terribly disappointed at some votes, but I get over it pretty quick. If I didn't, I'd not keep making music.

DHS · Post by **DHS** » 01/12/2003 - 15:17

Makke wrote:Sadly, there's nothing you can do about that. Has happened to me a good few times, and annoying as it is I don't care too much about them.

In this case the charts have no more reasons to be there.

cheers.

CraigG · Post by **CraigG** » 01/12/2003 - 15:25

Well, I reckon the charts fulfil a useful function: for newcomers, the first couple of pages of the R64 chart are a really good starting point, without them having to suffer the dross that sits at the foot of the chart. Sure, Jan's "filter" ensures that total crap is unlikely to make RKO, but there are still plenty of painfully mediocre tunes on there.