The New Remix Classics? Where is C64 Remixing headed?

[RobinsonMason]

If you go back to 2000 or so you can see a lot of the same SID tunes being remixed as are being done today. On the other hand, you'll see songs like M.U.L.E. that haven't had a lot of action since, and some of my favorite RPG's done like Ultima less remix and more remake, and were probably inspired by people with the games still relatively fresh on their minds. Then there are games that for whatever reason get no attention despite being good sellers in their day with catchy tunes such as Mail Order Monsters or some of the Dizzy titles.

But here the remix scene is nearly 10 years later, with ever more SIDs in the always growing HVSC to dig through.

Last Ninja and Comic Bakery remixes continue to come in, but as fewer people remember with great clarity the games they played on the C64 --or the "loading" tunes they had to sit through, thanks to emulation, what will make up the "New Classics" going forward? Will people bore of the same tiny fraction of the HVSC being remixed over and over? Or does Hubbard, Galway and Daglish love spring eternal?

What uncommon SIDs have risen to popularity here in the remix community regardless of the popularity of the game?

What uncommon SID remixes have impressed you to the point that you've wanted to put your own spin on the SID?

I guess my main question is - where do you think C64 Remixing is headed ---- down a path to waning interest in the 300th remix of the same dozen tunes - a Galway and Hubbard overdose , or continually reborn with fresh "forgotten" and newly discovered SIDs inspiring a chain of other remixes so the cycle begins anew?

I'd like to think the latter given the huge pool of SIDs that make up the HSVC, but what's your take?

And on that note - have you found more or less positive reactions if you've put out a remix of a well-worn SID, and conversely, have you found more or less interest in a SID you've remixed that no one else has touched before?

OK...that was a lot of questions...

[Infamous]

People dont tend to like it when you mess around with their favorite sid, if its not 1:1 or only uses traces of the tune theres always this complaint.. "wheres the sid?" my answer to that question is .. in your hvsc folder stop listening to mine and go listen to that if thats what you want to hear.. around 00/02 all the 1:1's of all the decent tunes had been done, theres plenty of red faced tunes back there from my point of view (not shared by others and neither does my views reflect anyone elses.. just my own) the 1:1 is done with. Ive done a few 1:1 remixes myself because i couldnt see any other way of doing them and sometimes thats the case and sometimes people like that... but usually i like to just take a small part of a tune whether its popular or not and make something around that its alot more fun to do than sitting there learning a tune note for note.

Lesser known sids.. I think the artist has to be known (moog, dafunk, hazel, mordi .. etc) for people to think.. whats this then? and they'll go listen to it and then maybe go listen to the original sid to hear where they got their tune from, is it close to the original.. did they play around with it at all? and that helps the scene alot i think, waz in particular was a bit of a white knight on that front requesting us all to have a look a little further into the hvsc for little gems here and there and it did give the scene a huge shot in the arm.

There are literally thousands of tunes to pick from, some are amazing some are god awful and its up to the artist that wants to remake them to do it in their style and forget about what other people want.. do what you want to do and someone will pick up on it and someone will hate it such is the nature of the beast. cant please everyone.

BUT for as long as the artists are writing.. there will be a audience.

And ofc there are always new sids being written that end up on the hvsc so that fountain is ever flowing, and the amiga remix community too and now the demo community (which has always been around) but thanks to ziphoid and a few others were all getting alot more exposure to it which can only be a good thing, theres a gold mine out there of talent and sid's and all sorts.

[Vosla]

From my point of view of a non-musician it's coming and going in waves.

There are remixes of well known SIDs that set the standards very high, so it gets difficult to deliver an unique or even more sophisticated version. I've seen SIDs remixed to "death" being ignored for a while and then some fresh blood gives a new interpretation of it and it works. This happened with Commando and Comic Bakery a few times.

And then there are SIDs that are - in my opinion - simply horrible and nobody touches them in ages until someone is bold enough and creates gold out of lead.

Sometimes it's just the style of some remixer you like that gives a remix just that drive to enter your playlist.

Another thing I observed is that someone starts to interpret a special SID and others follow suit and take that SID to make their own rendition. This feels to me like : "Hey, that tune was interesting. Let's see what I can do with it."

[RobinsonMason]

When you guys say "good SID tunes" you mean a quality, complex, well-made SID, correct?

I think, especially with the game-based SIDs early in the days of the C64 that there were a lot of good melodies in poor SIDs that would be even better candidates for "remixing" than some of the very good SIDs of the latter days or currently.

Does that make sense? Take a SID like Cyberdragon. A recent tune, and a very well-crafted SID. I can see how people would say "where's the SID" if you remix that. Or Citadel tracks. Or how it would be hard NOT to do 1/1 on the flip side.

But then there are the simple, fun melodies in less sophisticated SIDs that could make for a great remix. Say Mail Order Monsters - http://www.slayradio.org/sid_info.php?s ... nsters.sid - Never remixed, probably because the SID itself, despite a catchy tune, was no technical masterpiece.

And then there are simple tunes like Spelunker - remixed only once by Gzilla some years ago, but I don't "hear" the SID at all...maybe just a fraction in it in there.

Compare the original - http://remix.kwed.org/sid.php/1997/Spel ... e%201).sid
To the Remix - http://remix.kwed.org/files/RKOfiles/Gz ... lunker.mp3

Of course, there could be several schools of remix:

1. Remixing a great original SID that pushed the boundaries of SID music back in the day (Galway, etc) - or modern SIDs that are made with the help of modern technology and techniques that would have blown the minds of early Commodore bleep-blop-bzzz musicians (See: Telengard).

2. Remixing a catchy melody with potential from a lesser-known (except maybe to gamers who loved the game) SID. (M.U.L.E., some of the examples above)

3. 1/1 remake. Maybe something like Comets '97 by Chris Abbott from the Back in Time CD.

Or this: http://lazarus.thehawkonline.com/music/ ... sMarch.mp3

4. "Inspired by" -- such as the Spelunker example above.

5. 1/1 remake with a spinoff - A good example outside of the C64 Remix community is the Ultima 5: Lazarus Soundtrack - which actually has some tunes from other Ultimas that C64 owners will recognize. Starts very true to the original, but goes off on a tangent and becomes a new tune. (: http://lazarus.thehawkonline.com/music.html

Some really good ones in there if you like Ultima music. I listen to it when I write fiction.

http://lazarus.thehawkonline.com/music/Honesty.mp3
http://lazarus.thehawkonline.com/music/ ... rnpipe.mp3

I guess what I'm getting at is that there are some "great SIDs" that were great only because of exposing us to a great melody, but usually when I've seen people discuss great SIDs they are talking about very impressive technical efforts (and of course good melodies to go with them - gotta have that).

Some of my favorite C64 melodies were actually quite awful SIDs!

And that's a pity because they don't get remixed much, or at all.

[Chris Abbott]

If C64 music has a future outside this scene, my guess is it's in cannibalisation for forming bits of pop hits.

The remix scene will continue, but the people in it will, unfortunately, keep aging, procreating and (unfortunately) dying. It's natural attrition, especially given the mental and physical resources needed for (a) earning money, (b) being a parent, and (c) coping with life changes.

Mind you, a small but steady stream of people keep my shop open, so... dunno really. The Amiga scene seems to have a different curve to ours, possibly since it peaked a lot later than the C64 and continued into the new millennium with all the new Amiga models. When Immortal was released, it wasn't that far removed from the Amiga glory days (wasn't it?)

Chris

[Infamous]

I hope to be doing that middle one (procreating) on a regular basis for a long long time lol.

But anyway.. aye the sid sound is finding itself all over the place at the minute, timbaland has used it, liam howlett is using it ive heard nemesis being played in a nightclub which in my drunken state made me go eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! choooon! like a twat before eventually realising hold on a minute.. wonder if konami know someones using this tune?!.

There are alot of youngsters who are younger than the machine itself that are still coming through, who have no idea whatsoever about the c64 or any of the 8 bit machines and think that the snes or the megadrives "retro" because thats their youth but are still getting hooked to the sound and joining in with us old bastards which is always nice, someone said at one of the bits I cant remember which one or who but basically they didnt see rko or remix64 lasting longer than 2010 by the looks of things with all the new blood constantly coming through (and aslong as we dont cold shoulder them and dont welcome them into the fray if their nice people etc and whatnot) it'll last for a long old time and as i said before theres a wealth of sids to pick from.

the amiga scene i think needs a shot in the arm if you look over on the site the only real contributor there is daxx who pumps them out in batches of 4 or 5 at a time and then a small smattering of extra's, but im sure ziphoid has the PR muscles to get more people tuned into that too and in kind they'll pop over to rko aswell, or vgmix and discover that wealth of talent and great music i mentioned earlier.

and ofc buy more of your lovely cd's mr abbott

[RobinsonMason]

The remix scene will continue, but the people in it will, unfortunately, keep aging, procreating and (unfortunately) dying. It's natural attrition, especially given the mental and physical resources needed for (a) earning money, (b) being a parent, and (c) coping with life changes.

Well I can only speak for my own C64 gaming blog, but I've found this time in my life, with a child and wife at home, a full-time job at a computer company and all to actually be more stable and conducive to productivity than when I was single!

Actually I run or help run 3 blogs and forum sites, and am writing fiction, too.

Did I mention I have no social life?

[Chris Abbott]

The remix scene will continue, but the people in it will, unfortunately, keep aging, procreating and (unfortunately) dying. It's natural attrition, especially given the mental and physical resources needed for (a) earning money, (b) being a parent, and (c) coping with life changes.

Well I can only speak for my own C64 gaming blog, but I've found this time in my life, with a child and wife at home, a full-time job at a computer company and all to actually be more stable and conducive to productivity than when I was single!

Actually I run or help run 3 blogs and forum sites, and am writing fiction, too.

Did I mention I have no social life?

Er, but you have a family life, yes? C64 Remixing is a notorious "widow-creator"

[RobinsonMason]

Er, but you have a family life, yes? C64 Remixing is a notorious "widow-creator"

Oh yes, and a good one. My wife is a bit of a computer geek too, so that helps. Back when we lived in Japan in the early 90's and I had a Fujitsu FM-Towns, she suggested that we add a hard drive to it because she wanted to install FreeBSD for fun - this was soon after we had married. My jaw dropped.

I do my blogs, my podcasts, my radio serials, my drawing, my original fiction, my fan fiction, took a trip to Detroit to cover NAIAS, play card and board games, raise fish, love raising rare trees and gardening, play a little World of Warcraft, thinking of getting Rock Band...

My C64 blog: http://c64walkabout.com/
My trip to Detroit (I'm a staff member at GMInsidenews): http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f70/ ... tos-74122/
My fan fiction, just getting in to this: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4923324/1/G ... zle_Seeker

And my wife is OK with it, because we live so far out in the country in Texas that there's no one for me to go drinking with as in Tokyo.

Ah but I digress...

I do hope that C64 remixing continues, and I hope we can pull young people in to the C64 general scene and that it will inspire not just more remixing, but a wider listener base.

I have to think that a lot of the silent fan base of C64 remixes are just C64 fans like me who've never tried a remix. So if we can get more people re-introduced to gaming on the C64 via emulation....well, hope springs eternal, haha.

[Chris Abbott]

Er, but you have a family life, yes? C64 Remixing is a notorious "widow-creator"

Oh yes, and a good one. My wife is a bit of a computer geek too, so that helps. Back when we lived in Japan in the early 90's and I had a Fujitsu FM-Towns, she suggested that we add a hard drive to it because she wanted to install FreeBSD for fun - this was soon after we had married. My jaw dropped.

I do my blogs, my podcasts, my radio serials, my drawing, my original fiction, my fan fiction, took a trip to Detroit to cover NAIAS, play card and board games, raise fish, love raising rare trees and gardening, play a little World of Warcraft, thinking of getting Rock Band...

My C64 blog: http://c64walkabout.com/
My trip to Detroit (I'm a staff member at GMInsidenews): http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f70/ ... tos-74122/
My fan fiction, just getting in to this: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4923324/1/G ... zle_Seeker

And my wife is OK with it, because we live so far out in the country in Texas that there's no one for me to go drinking with as in Tokyo.

Cool, sounds like you got it going on

[RobinsonMason]

Oh...so steering back....I'm way bad with going off on other topics:

Can someone name me a couple of the "New Classics" that have sparked interest recently? Maybe someone did a great remix a year or two ago that spawned a bunch off the same SID?

Chris, since you've been on the scene for a long time, are there particular SIDs you see remixed with frequency today that were mostly untouched back in the day? "New discoveries"?

[LMan]

I guess remixing post 1999 SIDs is kind of less interesting, because those are often so well made that you wouldn't want them any other way. And those are not SIDs that many people remember from their childhood, which takes away the nostalgia bonus.

Here's my very personal view.
Taking a look at my own remixes, it seems like the real classics generally fare better at the charts, and receive far more attention (vote count) than the less known tunes - see http://www.remix64.com/chart.php?ctype=1&search=lman

I've had to learn not to be lead by that, in the early Remix64 days. When I began to remix, I wanted to make crowd-pleasers - easiest way is to choose well known pieces (ever wondered why there are so many remakes in the pop charts). Eventually I moved over to make remixes of tunes I care for, regardless of their popularity (not that I didn't care for the other tunes as well). Still, mostly that's tunes I remember from childhood.

I guess that newcomers tend to go for well-known stuff as well. It is also a matter of, like, "I'd like my own version of Last Ninja, too."

[Mayhem]

I guess remixing post 1999 SIDs is kind of less interesting, because those are often so well made that you wouldn't want them any other way. And those are not SIDs that many people remember from their childhood, which takes away the nostalgia bonus.

True in a way. Many people look to remixes to relive some of their memories from the 80s when they were playing the games in question. On the other hand it would have meant missing out on some excellent tracks done by Hazel of stuff from the 90s such as Project 11, Evelien, Sad Trip and Fatal Attraction, and later Beezerk's Floatee or Peter W's remix of Airscape Ride for example.

Over the years since buying BIT1 when Chris first put it out, I've come out of the comfort zone and embrace any remix out there if it's good; if it's a good tune, it's a good tune whether I already was familiar with it or not.

[RobinsonMason]

Here's my very personal view.
Taking a look at my own remixes, it seems like the real classics generally fare better at the charts, and receive far more attention (vote count) than the less known tunes - see http://www.remix64.com/chart.php?ctype=1&search=lman

....not SIDs that many people remember from their childhood, which takes away the nostalgia bonus.

Clystron seems to be a good example. The people that gave it a listen and voted liked it, but it got far fewer votes than some of the more popular titles.

I request songs now and then on SLAY Radio and I've noticed that even just mediocre remixes of a couple of once popular games get good scores if the tune has been ignored by the remixing community (likely because it was just an OK SID, technically).

I have to think that as musicians, the remix community members are predisposed to remixing technically superior SID efforts like, say, Crazy Comets -- even if more C64 general fans remember the tunes from, say, Jumpman (not a great example because it isn't a single long tune, but a set of short melodies). Still, I'd bet a (currently nonexistent?) Jumpman "mix" would get red faces if done in an above average fashion just for the nostalgia factor.

There are tunes popular with the remix community - that have developed a life of their own here beyond the game, or perhaps from a SID that was never associated with a game (or unpopular game, and SID melodies popular with C64 gamers - Nostalgia Factor.

I'll do some digging soon and see if I can't come up with a list of bestselling C64 game SIDs that have never been remixed, and put them into the "requests" forum.

I'll try to make sure that I stay away from the games that were ported to 10 other systems or ported from an arcade version, because you could get that kind of thing anywhere.

That way if anyone wants an instant boost to their score, and number of people willing to give their tune a listen --- they'll have nostalgia backing them.

[Analog-X64]

I'll keep it short.

1. Nostalgia is going to be different for People depending on the Decade they were born in. So that means, there
should be people out there 10-15 years younger than myself who could find nostalgia in SIDs from 1989 and Beyond,
and those would be the ones that could be the new blood in the scene.

2. The Remixing Bar gets set higher and higher every year from a combination of new Talent, Hardware/Software
advancements. We need to be careful when we label a remix as the ultimate remix and that there can never
be a better remix. A few newcomers might find this a challenge, but I bet a larger number will be scared away
by these type of statements.

3. It will require more than this site to keep things alive and going, it will take a number of sites like this one to do it. Look at how many members we have here, who have joined back in 2002 and have 5-10 posts and drop in once every 2-3 years and disappear? Those are not the ones who will keep the scene alive.

Its not all doom and gloom, and we cant deny what Chris said about aging and other real life stuff. But when you have people like, like the current active remixers show up out of nowhere, it gives new hope.

Heck.. I hope to be around for at least another 20 years, as long as sites like this one exist, I will be posting.