The Lib Dem remit for government isn't quite as clear cut as that. The party's idea is to "offload" pan-European policy to Brussels, in order to concentrate on stuff that only affects the UK. As the UK won't truly be able to change much about pan-European policy per se, it's a case of allocating resources. The party also wants more local government (i.e. more regional parliaments), which, in principle at least, can be a good idea (although this is one area of Lib Dem policy I'm not entirely convinced about).
I think from my point of view, the Lib Dems, despite being a long, long way from a perfect party, at least have some integrity and some good ideas. Remember that for the past 15 years they've had the policy of raising income tax by 1 per cent across the board, in order to further subsidise and improve public services, without the need for "stealth" taxes. Labour and the Tories both said taxes would drop, but they didn't. The Lib Dems admitted they'd raise taxes, but in a totally obvious, up-front way, and it cost them about seven per cent of the vote. The British, apparently, want lying bastard politiciansâ€â€"truth" (or at least the nearest thing to it in politics) is not "rewarded".
Their ideas for education (more along the lines of the international bacalaureat, rather than the constant exams and changes of recent governments) make sense, too.
I'm rather hoping about ten per cent of the voters more than usual share this view at the next election. Hell, even if you don't subscribe to Lib Dem politics entirely, the party's got to be worth a shot, especially in the current climate.
Oh, and as for the ID cards bill, the BBC reports that MPs voted by 385 votes to 93 in favour of the scheme. Bastards. (Well, 385 of them, at least.)
Big Brother is watching you!
Last edited by CraigG on 20/12/2004 - 22:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Chris Abbott
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Hmm. Well, now we've got to hope that the Lords and other difficult rebel types do enough damage to the bill in committee to neuter it.
If the Lib Dems come out strongly in their campaign against ID cards and clarify their European policy a bit more, it might be the best campaign they ever had. If I think their European policy makes sense, I'll vote for them. Though in a solid Tory area (they don't come much more Tory than Bromley), that's about as much use as lyrics for Zoids.
Chris
If the Lib Dems come out strongly in their campaign against ID cards and clarify their European policy a bit more, it might be the best campaign they ever had. If I think their European policy makes sense, I'll vote for them. Though in a solid Tory area (they don't come much more Tory than Bromley), that's about as much use as lyrics for Zoids.
Chris
The problem right now is that the Lib Dems are missing an open goal. On the news, it seems no-one challenged the national population database, but instead concentrated on whether you'd have to carry the cards (missing the point, seeing as YOU are the card); amusingly, Clarke was on TV earlier, stating primary advantages of having an ID card included things like getting a passport or bank account, and joining a video library (seriously). I already have a passport and bank account, but I'm glad that all those nasty terrorists will find it so much harder to rent tapes at Blockbuster. (Actually, they won't: what the ID cards totally fail to do is remove terrorists, who will be happy to live under a false identity until the time to strike.)
As for your local area, Chris, it's the same here. I live in north-east Hampshire, in a "true blue" area. However, the Lib Dems are slowly eating away at the Tory lead at each election, and they even took nearby Winchester famously a couple of elections back, so you never know.
As for your local area, Chris, it's the same here. I live in north-east Hampshire, in a "true blue" area. However, the Lib Dems are slowly eating away at the Tory lead at each election, and they even took nearby Winchester famously a couple of elections back, so you never know.
They say the first of these cards will start appearing in 2008, now, can we see a swaithe of ppl wanting to emigrate to avoid it ? because I do... Putting all that data in one place has ALWAYS been a bad idea. Dont ppl ALWAYS say "dont put all your eggs in one basket" ? - theres good reason for that.
Lets assume youve just used your card to join a video club, and on the way home, you got mugged... the year is 2010 and by now hackers have gotten the code to enable them to build readers.. (why not, happened with credit cards, sim cards, RF mobile transmissions and IR car lock's).
They take off with your card then before you have reported it spolen, its handed in at a cop shop... they contact you, you get it, all cool ? NO, the robber has a reader, maybe a form of duplication (they can counterfeit ANYTHING these days with the right resources). So, youre happy you got your card back, then, some git who bout a copy of your card on ebay uses it to scam a company elsewhere in the EU, they get the data from it and come to you for payment and justice - huh ? nothing to do with you right ? - WRONG... SO SO WRONG.....
If you sell a car and dont tell the right ppl, and the new owner gets a ticket, its still upto you to pay it
- the same will apply with these cards, why ? cos they have nobody else to make answer for the crime, thats why...
Add to that, that its very possible that THOUSANDS of copies of your card are out there on the black market.... now its all well n good cancelling a bank or visa card if its stolen, but how do you replace your WHOLE LIFE ! ?
Mores the point, with that knowledge, what could THEY do with your information ? how far would it go ? would you need a new identity every time a card is compromised ?
Well im sorry, but they can cart me off to jail or fine my ass, i wont subscribe to these cards... I'll emigrate first. Its bad enough we have to have them, MANDATORY, but to make us pay for em too ? - How many ppl other than me sees a revolt bigger than the one caused by the Poll Tax looming ?
Lets assume youve just used your card to join a video club, and on the way home, you got mugged... the year is 2010 and by now hackers have gotten the code to enable them to build readers.. (why not, happened with credit cards, sim cards, RF mobile transmissions and IR car lock's).
They take off with your card then before you have reported it spolen, its handed in at a cop shop... they contact you, you get it, all cool ? NO, the robber has a reader, maybe a form of duplication (they can counterfeit ANYTHING these days with the right resources). So, youre happy you got your card back, then, some git who bout a copy of your card on ebay uses it to scam a company elsewhere in the EU, they get the data from it and come to you for payment and justice - huh ? nothing to do with you right ? - WRONG... SO SO WRONG.....
If you sell a car and dont tell the right ppl, and the new owner gets a ticket, its still upto you to pay it
- the same will apply with these cards, why ? cos they have nobody else to make answer for the crime, thats why...Add to that, that its very possible that THOUSANDS of copies of your card are out there on the black market.... now its all well n good cancelling a bank or visa card if its stolen, but how do you replace your WHOLE LIFE ! ?
Mores the point, with that knowledge, what could THEY do with your information ? how far would it go ? would you need a new identity every time a card is compromised ?
Well im sorry, but they can cart me off to jail or fine my ass, i wont subscribe to these cards... I'll emigrate first. Its bad enough we have to have them, MANDATORY, but to make us pay for em too ? - How many ppl other than me sees a revolt bigger than the one caused by the Poll Tax looming ?
Afterthought.....
I wonder if Tony Blair, or MP's or LawLords will have to use this ID Card, maybe the Queen ? - it would be a sure fire sign if they dont because thats showing their distrust in the system and its security - Who's money is on the bet that MP's and Royalty dont have to use these cards ? lol ....
Who's money is on the database gettin hacked within a year of service too.
I wonder if Tony Blair, or MP's or LawLords will have to use this ID Card, maybe the Queen ? - it would be a sure fire sign if they dont because thats showing their distrust in the system and its security - Who's money is on the bet that MP's and Royalty dont have to use these cards ? lol ....
Who's money is on the database gettin hacked within a year of service too.
The Australian Labor government trying to introduce the Aussie ID card in the late 80s and it failed. I remember the protestors wearing barcodes on the heads, oh boy it looked stupid. Personally I kinda prefer the idea, I've got completely nothing to hide.
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Me neither. However, just because I have nothing to hide, that doesn't mean I want government-linked CCTV in every room of my house "just in case". I also don't want an ID card "just in case". The card is of no use to me whatsoever, and the cards in general will be of very little use. Also bear in mind the staggering costs of implementation. If the costs rise year-on-year as rapidly as they have so far, we're looking at around £8-10 BILLION (that's about $17 billion). Imagine all the good that could be done with that cash. Hell, imagine all the "counter terrorism" stuff that could be done with that much money, if the government chose to.I've got completely nothing to hide.
As for emigration: no thanks. One of your points, Matrix, has been brought up in parliament and interviews, but the government naively claims that the cards will be impossible to forge (which, of course, is total hogwash). Even if they were, it wouldn't stop terrorists, as I've already said. And the benefit fraud thing is a total red herringâ€â€after all, why try and combat about £50 million of fraud with a scheme that will cost billions to set up?
I've got one question...
Since you've spoken of CCTV cameras... what do you think is more good:
- having 10 cameras filming your home street and every now and then catching you flirt the redhead neighbour or kissing your girl or,
- NOT having them and beeing mugged, having your car burned, having your dog killed AND NOT beeing able to find out who did it because there's no witnesses?
I prefer the 1st really... even if I think cameras should only be used in highly public places and cities where ppl have grown to be insensitive...
Since you've spoken of CCTV cameras... what do you think is more good:
- having 10 cameras filming your home street and every now and then catching you flirt the redhead neighbour or kissing your girl or,
- NOT having them and beeing mugged, having your car burned, having your dog killed AND NOT beeing able to find out who did it because there's no witnesses?
I prefer the 1st really... even if I think cameras should only be used in highly public places and cities where ppl have grown to be insensitive...
What do you think is better:
- accepting the fact that, horrid as they are, despicable acts are always going to happen in this world, yet retaining your freedoms?
- or giving up all your freedoms for so-called "security", which, by and large won't actually stop any of the acts happening, but may bring more of the perpetrators to justice?
The facts are that crime is falling, and that most of the worst crimes (murder, rape, abduction) are committed by family members or close friends. The problem is that we have a media fixated on shock values, with the possible exception of some broadsheets and, to some extent, a few of the news shows on television.
We are being made to think that a rapist, terrorist or serial killer is round every corner, and that CCTV and ID cards are some magical thing that will forever remove such things from our society. The fact remains that they don't: CCTV doesn't stop crimeâ€â€it simply moves some of it elsewhere. (And, should you argue that CCTV should somehow be "everywhere", the fact remains that the police aren't.) ID cards won't stop fraud or terrorism.
Still, some of the middle class will feel safer in bed at night, convinced by Labour spin that the ID cards will solve every one of the UK's problems. Until, of course, like in Spain (which has ID cards), there's another atrocity.
- accepting the fact that, horrid as they are, despicable acts are always going to happen in this world, yet retaining your freedoms?
- or giving up all your freedoms for so-called "security", which, by and large won't actually stop any of the acts happening, but may bring more of the perpetrators to justice?
The facts are that crime is falling, and that most of the worst crimes (murder, rape, abduction) are committed by family members or close friends. The problem is that we have a media fixated on shock values, with the possible exception of some broadsheets and, to some extent, a few of the news shows on television.
We are being made to think that a rapist, terrorist or serial killer is round every corner, and that CCTV and ID cards are some magical thing that will forever remove such things from our society. The fact remains that they don't: CCTV doesn't stop crimeâ€â€it simply moves some of it elsewhere. (And, should you argue that CCTV should somehow be "everywhere", the fact remains that the police aren't.) ID cards won't stop fraud or terrorism.
Still, some of the middle class will feel safer in bed at night, convinced by Labour spin that the ID cards will solve every one of the UK's problems. Until, of course, like in Spain (which has ID cards), there's another atrocity.
Having camera's in the street is one thing, haveing a hacker sell your life on ebay for £10 is another.
They said Macrovision couldnt be got round... the ultimate video protection, they got round it...
They said police channels could not be listened in on after AM was made illegal for public use, ppl listen in
They said Playstation discs being black / Dremcast 1GB discs - couldnt be copied due to proprietory formats, they were..
They said Cartridge sysytems like SNES couldnt be copied - enter the Super Pro Fighter module allowing floppies to be used via a cart slot interface.
They said dual chip sky cards could not be beat, they were
The point is, nothing is unhackable, and any government that claims anything IS 100% secure is off their rocker (after all, NASA was secure when that 14 year old got in a few years back huh).... and to slap all your info on a card that can be used anywhere in the country to verify details about you is nuts !! - if it can be verified by a legitimate source, then it can be used or verified by an illegal source too.
Ive no problem with street cameras, either for street use or indevidual houses, but with this system, its a complete invasion of privacy - and when, note i said WHEN, the system fails (as it invariably will), who pays the price ? government, the ppl who switch every 5 years ? no - the common man gets to carry it on his back for the rest of his life, AND pay for it, AND have to keep paying for it.
Governments are supposed to listen to the ppl; i think its about time ours started doing exactly that.
THERE IS NOTHING THAT CANT BE HACKED THERE IS NOTHING THATS 100% SECURE
Bout time these highly paid sycophants stopped deluding themselves; and spending public coffer money in the process; on things that are inevitably doomed to failure.
They said Macrovision couldnt be got round... the ultimate video protection, they got round it...
They said police channels could not be listened in on after AM was made illegal for public use, ppl listen in
They said Playstation discs being black / Dremcast 1GB discs - couldnt be copied due to proprietory formats, they were..
They said Cartridge sysytems like SNES couldnt be copied - enter the Super Pro Fighter module allowing floppies to be used via a cart slot interface.
They said dual chip sky cards could not be beat, they were
The point is, nothing is unhackable, and any government that claims anything IS 100% secure is off their rocker (after all, NASA was secure when that 14 year old got in a few years back huh).... and to slap all your info on a card that can be used anywhere in the country to verify details about you is nuts !! - if it can be verified by a legitimate source, then it can be used or verified by an illegal source too.
Ive no problem with street cameras, either for street use or indevidual houses, but with this system, its a complete invasion of privacy - and when, note i said WHEN, the system fails (as it invariably will), who pays the price ? government, the ppl who switch every 5 years ? no - the common man gets to carry it on his back for the rest of his life, AND pay for it, AND have to keep paying for it.
Governments are supposed to listen to the ppl; i think its about time ours started doing exactly that.
THERE IS NOTHING THAT CANT BE HACKED THERE IS NOTHING THATS 100% SECURE
Bout time these highly paid sycophants stopped deluding themselves; and spending public coffer money in the process; on things that are inevitably doomed to failure.
Dave, thats a good point...
I remember the uproar when CCTV came in to Doncaster within the Town Centre. Since then, we've never looked back!
The town centre is a much safer place now than it was before. It was thanks to CCTV that they cought some one who assaulted me years ago that left me with a broken jaw, and stiches in my mouth.
So, don't tell me that CCTV doesn't work? it worked for me!
I remember the uproar when CCTV came in to Doncaster within the Town Centre. Since then, we've never looked back!
The town centre is a much safer place now than it was before. It was thanks to CCTV that they cought some one who assaulted me years ago that left me with a broken jaw, and stiches in my mouth.
So, don't tell me that CCTV doesn't work? it worked for me!
I don't mind public places being watched. I don't really mind the police tracking gangster's cars with the toll collect bridges either. What troubles me is the potential of such technologies. Worst case scenario: imagine the 3rd Reich having such gadgets. No escape, no hiding, no resistance, because nothing goes unnoticed.
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Vosla
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Top that with implant chips (which could be disabled with strong magnetic fields but that would be highly illegal and followed up by long prison sentences) nobody is allowed to deny. This isn't science fiction, it's already a part in plans for "public security". Sure, they tell you it's for your own sake and that of your children. BLAH!!! It's done because you should not be able to hide anymore! (Fascists of the world, rejoice!!! Mark members of your favorite minority as fair game and have a go! Fantastic visions of automated elimination devices come to my mind.)
Hidden chips are real with a lot of stuff you buy on a daily basis. Okay, secure a cashmere pullover in a boutique with a chip and it's obviously aimed at thieves. But what the heck does such a chip implemented in a package of milk?? That's customer observation. And after you paid your shopping, everyone knows what you bought where and how often.
"Huh, that guy got several rolls of duct tape. Let's mark him as a potential sexual offender or at least a perv."
"But I'm not a criminal, so I don't have to fear anything!"
So why do they treat you as a criminal, observing you?
German Telekom stores a damn lot of data what you did with your telephone or internet connection. They say, it's holding evidence for billing for their services you used. Hmm, why do they store WHOLE SESSIONS if just storing the connection details would do the job? And nobody controls if ALL data is erased after billing. They already stated that they helped police with proving evidence to catch criminals. Nothing wrong with catching criminals but this practise is questionable as they hadn't the right to give away information without a proper judges' decision. And it's a proof that they store CONTENT, not only connection details for a LONG time.
Hidden chips are real with a lot of stuff you buy on a daily basis. Okay, secure a cashmere pullover in a boutique with a chip and it's obviously aimed at thieves. But what the heck does such a chip implemented in a package of milk?? That's customer observation. And after you paid your shopping, everyone knows what you bought where and how often.
"Huh, that guy got several rolls of duct tape. Let's mark him as a potential sexual offender or at least a perv."
"But I'm not a criminal, so I don't have to fear anything!"
So why do they treat you as a criminal, observing you?
German Telekom stores a damn lot of data what you did with your telephone or internet connection. They say, it's holding evidence for billing for their services you used. Hmm, why do they store WHOLE SESSIONS if just storing the connection details would do the job? And nobody controls if ALL data is erased after billing. They already stated that they helped police with proving evidence to catch criminals. Nothing wrong with catching criminals but this practise is questionable as they hadn't the right to give away information without a proper judges' decision. And it's a proof that they store CONTENT, not only connection details for a LONG time.
All is lost.
Again, this is bordering paranoia. You all have credit cards right? And cell phones?
Well, using a credit card is a million times more insecure and prone to pinpoint location than anything else... cellphones are almost GPS devices in you... and you're worried about a card that has only a few totally unvaluable numbers in it? Geez...
Sure, I wouldn't like someone to access my social security number (for privacy reasons) but what good is it? Will they forge aomething with it? And my fingerprint in a card, what use could they gain from it that could put my life or possessions in risk?
Most countries use ID cards and to my knowledge little can be done to harm just by using the info in it... it's not like the card has my bank account key in it, or my medical history.
Impersonations, fraud, illegal use of compiled data, etc... all that can happen WITH or WITHOUT the ID card... so blaming the card is highly subjective.
I still consider that americans and british have been left in a state of limbo and anonomity for far too long... I'm not saying the cards proposal isn't without it's faults, but to deny the use of ID cards is incompreensible...
For instance, the portuguese government is considering a eletronic ID card that could contain more info, like blood type, some usefull numbers, (social security, fiscal, etc)...and everyone is saying it's taking too damn long...
Here everyone needs to have about 6 cards for regular use (ID, SS, fiscal,electoral card, drivers licence,debit/credit). Any of them is used almost on daily basis, and many actions require several of them (a police stop would require 2(of those, plus others), a bank movement maybe 3, elections 2)... most of us would like at least the fisrt 4 I mentioned to be included in a single card. Plus aditional data like blood type, insurance number, etc... and I woulnd't mind it at all... provided they used a decent encryption system and multiple fraud prevection measures. But that's not new...
Well, using a credit card is a million times more insecure and prone to pinpoint location than anything else... cellphones are almost GPS devices in you... and you're worried about a card that has only a few totally unvaluable numbers in it? Geez...
Sure, I wouldn't like someone to access my social security number (for privacy reasons) but what good is it? Will they forge aomething with it? And my fingerprint in a card, what use could they gain from it that could put my life or possessions in risk?
Most countries use ID cards and to my knowledge little can be done to harm just by using the info in it... it's not like the card has my bank account key in it, or my medical history.
Impersonations, fraud, illegal use of compiled data, etc... all that can happen WITH or WITHOUT the ID card... so blaming the card is highly subjective.
I still consider that americans and british have been left in a state of limbo and anonomity for far too long... I'm not saying the cards proposal isn't without it's faults, but to deny the use of ID cards is incompreensible...
For instance, the portuguese government is considering a eletronic ID card that could contain more info, like blood type, some usefull numbers, (social security, fiscal, etc)...and everyone is saying it's taking too damn long...
Here everyone needs to have about 6 cards for regular use (ID, SS, fiscal,electoral card, drivers licence,debit/credit). Any of them is used almost on daily basis, and many actions require several of them (a police stop would require 2(of those, plus others), a bank movement maybe 3, elections 2)... most of us would like at least the fisrt 4 I mentioned to be included in a single card. Plus aditional data like blood type, insurance number, etc... and I woulnd't mind it at all... provided they used a decent encryption system and multiple fraud prevection measures. But that's not new...