Big Brother is watching you!

Chris Abbott · Post by **Chris Abbott** » 18/12/2004 - 14:16

I don't know about anyone else, but the fields on that database don't alarm me too much, but reading that site, it appears that "Failure to obey an order from the Secretary of State" would be a criminal offence. How frightening is that?? It's also odious to make the public foot the bill for such a political piece of ideology, and the fines for failing to inform them of moving house? That's just scary.

Having said that, I don't see anywhere in the bill the right for authorities to access credit card or bank transaction information, so that might be a bit of an unwarranted extrapolation. Am I reading it wrong?

Oddly, this level of control freakery isn't really facist, so much as communist. It reminds me of the Moscow bureaucracy whereby if a foreigner went into the country, they needed to spend the first day down a local unfriendly office just getting a stamp on the already-stamped visa. And don't get me started on residence permits... (first-hand experience).

Chris

CraigG · Post by **CraigG** » 18/12/2004 - 16:16

Chris Abbott wrote:Having said that, I don't see anywhere in the bill the right for authorities to access credit card or bank transaction information, so that might be a bit of an unwarranted extrapolation. Am I reading it wrong?

Nope, but the point was this could easily be introduced later on. And, judging by the shockingly authoritarian stance of the Labour party over the past few years, it probably would be.

Also, bear in mind that the electoral roll has in the past been sold to numerous companies. There's nothing to stop this happening to some or all of the ID card information that's stored.

It's also worth noting that when Germany started along the ID card line, it actually forbade something like the natpop database, on the basis that it was too much of an intrusion of civil liberties. Apparently, though, our government isn't nearly as "liberal" as that, and cares considerably less for its citizens in this area.

Chris Abbott · Post by **Chris Abbott** » 18/12/2004 - 16:49

> Nope, but the point was this could easily be introduced later on.
I don't think it would be easy: especially given the greatly reduced majority Tony Blair will have in his third term: he's going to spend most of it being defeated over stuff, like John Major.

Chris

CraigG · Post by **CraigG** » 18/12/2004 - 19:36

Chris Abbott wrote:I don't think it would be easy: especially given the greatly reduced majority Tony Blair will have in his third term: he's going to spend most of it being defeated over stuff, like John Major.

Except over ID cardsÃ¢â‚¬â€remember that a certain Mr. Howard was a major advocate of these during his time as a scumbag home secretary. Only if there's a large number of Lib Dems *and* enough non-high-ranking Tories and Labour MPs with enough guts not to toe the party line will this particular piece of policy (and its subsequent additions) bite the dust.

DaveT · Post by **DaveT** » 18/12/2004 - 20:14

You brits are way too paranoid...
Most countries have ID cards (non-eletronic) and so far no-one ever felt violated in their rights and privacy. Sure, some info should remain private (medical and financial mostly) but I can't see how my social security number, my medical care number and others included in a single ID card could harm anyone...

CraigG · Post by **CraigG** » 18/12/2004 - 21:23

DaveT wrote:You brits are way too paranoid...
Most countries have ID cards (non-eletronic) and so far no-one ever felt violated in their rights and privacy.

That's because most countries don't have an ID card where every government department has access to information every other government department holds. Before stating that I/we am/are paranoid, read exactly WHY I'm saying all these things, by looking at the information at the No2ID website.

Sure, some info should remain private (medical and financial mostly)

Under the UK government's proposals, all medical records would likely be available to any government department and whoever the government later choses to share this information with.

I can't see how my social security number, my medical care number and others included in a single ID card could harm anyone...

That's down to personal choice; however, the UK card entails significantly more than that.

DaveT · Post by **DaveT** » 19/12/2004 - 11:13

I guess i touched a nerve there...
I believe you've been too long WITHOUT any control of any sort, only relying on a persons' word to identify her. Now that a "modern" system is beeing devised you see men in black suits everywhere...
Although I agree that many proposed information items are a bit too much, the site you mention is agains't ID CARDS, not any specific proposed items they might contain... and that's paranoid.

Chris Abbott · Post by **Chris Abbott** » 19/12/2004 - 12:22

> only relying on a persons' word to identify her
That's not been true for a long time, actually. You have to produce Driving Licences or Passports for real identification: or a credit card for some shops. One of Neil's points is that a method of ID that didn't involve you having to (a) drive, (b) travel abroad (which is when people get a passport, not before usually), or (c) getting into debt might have some positive features. I think Craig is not trusting the Government of the UK to administer or setup the scheme properly, and is also suspicious that the Government will lie about things to try and pass draconian legislation.

Given their track record of lies about Iraq and many other things, you can't blame people for not trusting them. Just who are this brainless mass who vote for Labour or Conservative every single damn time? They're the ones making the voting system meaningless. Maybe they've crossbred with the people who respond to spam...

Chris

Matrix · Post by **Matrix** » 19/12/2004 - 12:23

I guess they will put every1 through a myers briggs test..... and a general aptitude test, then imprint that too along with your CV on this card, all youll need to do is trot along to your interview and drop your card in a reader... thats when problems occur, cos how do you know they are reading things they ought not to have access to ?

Matrix · Post by **Matrix** » 19/12/2004 - 12:30

DaveT wrote:You brits are way too paranoid...
Most countries have ID cards (non-eletronic) and so far no-one ever felt violated in their rights and privacy. Sure, some info should remain private (medical and financial mostly) but I can't see how my social security number, my medical care number and others included in a single ID card could harm anyone...

To quote "RAT" from the movie "The Core":
"iIonly speak one language.... 1 0 1 0 0 1, and with that i can steak your secrets, your private fantasies, your whole life *pharrrr* here, you got free long distance on that phone ........ forever....."

Vosla · Post by **Vosla** » 19/12/2004 - 12:31

Yep! What kind of manager-mind cares for laws? They have exchanged ethics with spreadsheets full of mini-max calculations.
My suggestion: Shoot them at first sight so they can't backstab you.

Makke · Post by **Makke** » 19/12/2004 - 13:16

As I see it the question isn't if you're paranoid. It's if you're paranoid enough.

I had a discussion with this guy who thought the speed cameras along the roads were invading his privacy, because the government could use them to document where he was going. I just asked him if he usually has a cellphone with him, and he said yes. I told him that the government would probably use that to track him instead if they wanted to. Then they'd be able to pin-point where he is at any given moment with about a 100 meter accuracy.

I don't like the idea of one centralized database for everything. It's very bad practice seen from a security perspective. Only one system to penetrate to get all that information.

CraigG · Post by **CraigG** » 19/12/2004 - 13:43

DaveT wrote:I guess i touched a nerve there...
I believe you've been too long WITHOUT any control of any sort, only relying on a persons' word to identify her. Now that a "modern" system is beeing devised you see men in black suits everywhere...
Although I agree that many proposed information items are a bit too much, the site you mention is agains't ID CARDS, not any specific proposed items they might contain... and that's paranoid.

There's no need to be worried about "men in black" when the ones that are fleecing you are in full view, on the news every night. Bear in mind that before he resigned, Blunkett clearly stated that without an ID card, you would have to pay a significant sum of money to access the USA. That was a lie. The initial costs stated were about Ã‚Â£3bn. That was a lie, and totally and utterly inaccurate. The government stated that the card would combat terrorism. That is a lie, and certainly not backed up by any other country with a card (and, more to the point, we didn't have ID cards when the IRA was most active).

And, as Chris says, we do have forms of ID in this country, you know. We have passports, driving licences, and a national insurance card (which in itself could be expanded with a name, address, photo and marital details, to create a basic ID card that I wouldn't be against, but there you go).

I hate many aspects of the card, but do YOU really trust government departments with access to information of every other government department not to abuse this information, ever? Why is there a need for such a database? And seeing as our government happily sold off the electoral roll to various companies - against the wishes of the population - I can't see it being very long before they do the same here. I'm sure insurance companies would happily pay up for your medical records, for instance.

The Labour government started well. For perhaps five years, they had a honeymoon based on change for the better. However, since then, the party has shifted alarmingly towards the right, becoming an authoritarian party that follows the lead of the USA. We are a parliamentary democracy - a system that is supposed to enable the people to elect people to do their wishes. Yet, for Iraq, those wishes were ignored. Labour want to scrap trial by jury in many circumstances - against the will of the people. We're rapidly heading towards a kind of elected dictatorship, where political spin means zombie voters vote the dictators back in again to "ensure the security of the UK". It's a pitiful situation, and, frankly, one that scares the sÃ¢â‚¬â€Ã¢â‚¬â€ out of me.

So, paranoid? I don't think so. Just very aware of all the facts (unlike, it seems, 85 per cent or so of the electorate), and getting increasingly worried about what my country is turning into.

Infamous · Post by **Infamous** » 19/12/2004 - 14:31

it could be worse.. remember the game syndicate?.. ID chips inserted directly into children when born... so that nice hacker type people a few years into the future can just feed you with a nice new set of digital feeds that cause you to do what they want.. ie - get a mini gun and kill the president etc.

that may sound far fetched.. but wasnt that the original idea BEFORE the id cards? .. and isnt it still in development?.. the id card is just the very start and nothing compared to what the future holds for our children and our childrens children.

and who are we to defy our government?.. we are just mere statistics on their nice pretty charts and im sure our complaints will be logged and looked at in detail and on our id card when we have them forced upon us somewere in there it will read " devout anarchist do not give passport, do not give etc etc " ..... its going to happen whether we like it or not and all the complaining in the world wont stop it and by what ive read complaining about it and none compliance will lead to a pretty hefty fine or worse a prison sentence.. where maybe we'll be treated to a clockwork orange style "conditioning"... would'nt that be nice... who said fiction couldnt become reality?

CraigG · Post by **CraigG** » 19/12/2004 - 15:26

Although it perhaps sounds cynical, there do seem to be a suspicious number of articles of late on chipping babies, every time there's a child abduction case. Again, this feeds off the layer of fear that the British media at least seems to be feeding us on a daily basis. It speaks volumes that crime in the UK is steadily falling (and has been over the past few years), but people's general perception is that crime is risingÃ¢â‚¬â€fast. Likewise, I suppose, regarding the threat of a terrorist attack. Sure, the UK is perhaps a prime target. However, we lived with this threat for many years (IRA, etc), and I'm certain that the threat would have been much lower had the government not entered an illegal war against the wishes of the people (and, as it happens, half the Cabinet, only one of whom had enough guts to resign, thereby proving him to have considerably more integrity than those that currently run the country).

Another aspect of the ID cards issue that grates is the obvious spin on information. Blunkett stated that over 80 per cent were in favour, but this came from very interesting questions (would you be in favour of an ID card if it definitely stopped terrorist attacks, fraud, etc), which few people will say "no" to. The actual figures from people that know more of the facts are much, much lower, but these recent figures are being ignored. Also, it's rather telling that the general public is not invited to many of the government presentations on the cards, and that there's not to be any kind of referendum on a project that will forever change the fabric of our society.

However, I do not believe in "it's going to happen whether we like it or not". Our generation is so bloody apathetic, it's appalling. What we need to do is shout, sign petitions, write to our MPs (or fax themÃ¢â‚¬â€a process that takes about a minute), and fight. However, the consumer society seems more interested in getting into debt, buying sÃ¢â‚¬â€Ã¢â‚¬â€ they don't need, and dismissing politics as "boring", despite it massively changing how we live our lives.

I'm not suggesting everyone becomes some sort of political activist. However, I am suggesting that people arm themselves fully with the facts, and when they don't agree with something (like the ID cards bill, for instance), they sign the petitions and fax their MPs.

If anyone here is interested in finding out more about the ID cards bill, there are two highly useful threads on WoS:

http://invisionfree.com/forums/worldofs ... wtopic=213

http://invisionfree.com/forums/worldofs ... wtopic=808